Economics

What is the intrinsic value of any currency? Also zero…

Another comment here sums it up well:

> The tech guys don’t understand the business cases for crypto. The business guys don’t understand the value of the underlying tech.

TheLongestConn

Things only have the value that people assign to it.

10111011110101

its funny that I had an exchange on this exact issue recently on this subreddit and I was basically insulted for questioning the intrinsic value of bitcoin

there are various types of value, market value, replacement value, trade value, book value and so on, each with their own unique flavour to add to the term value

in this case intrinsic value also has its own meaning, and to me this refers to the “use” value of the money in question, and the test for this is as follows- of what use is the money to the person if they cannot use it as a means of exchange?

The_Angry_Economist

Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies are built on whataboutism. “Oh, look, your paper currency is fiat, and really has no value! Since it has no value, why not invest in our cryptocurrency on a fiat basis?”

They somehow believe that the fact that “fiat currency” can get printed and lose value if you have a shitty regulatory agency, even though that normally isn’t a major issue for most people, that that’s a far greater concern than placing a trust with a currency that can’t be regulated, that is much easier to finance and launder crime with, and who’s inherent value cannot just diminish in value over the years, but does so constantly as it continues to be push, dumped, and gamed like crazy. Furthermore, unlike paper, the fabrication and maintenance cost of cryptocurrencies tends to be much higher.

GoTuckYourduck

Intrinsic value is a misnomer.

The only reason something has value is because humans want it and attribute value to it.

Bitcoin will stay relevant as long as people want it to.

It’s simple as that.

dantech_ninja

The damnedest observation I can make is that despite all the hot capital levering up and begging for a home, there is so much work to be done to which no capital is being allocated.

I drive around. Roads falling apart. Bridges in disrepair. Shuttered factories sitting empty for decades. Empty storefronts. Empty warehouses. Homes in disrepair. Cars in disrepair. People who need medical and dental and mental health care. People in all kinds of jobs stressed more than ever. More patients per nurse. More students per teacher. More clients per public defender. More customers per clerk. And all around skilled people underemployed and unemployed whose skills are not being put to use. PhDs working as baristas and customer support. JDs working as secretaries. MBAs training to be assistant managers at a Rent-A-Car joint. MS in science going back for a medical coding and billing certificate to earn $38k/yr.

All anecdotal. But all stuff I see. So many areas in which in influx of capital could solve so many problems and unleash the talents of so many smart and well-trained people. And yet no capital to do any of it. At the same time, more capital than anyone knows what to do with in the market. Lowest rates ever for bottom barrel junk bonds.

If an American ever finds a way to direct that capital to useful ends where it is needed here, I honestly believe we could see a massive national renaissance.

badluckbrians

Can’t wait for the 3rd once in a lifetime crash of my barely 30 year life.

SixPieceTaye

when you bailout wall st, the message is clear: Do it again, but this time with more leverage.

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The next bailout will need to be bigger to account for all the leverage. And the process will repeat itself.

atrueretard

The NASDAQ was red last week until the stimulus package went through. And now its green lmao. PE ratio, margin debt, rising treasury yields, and high unemployment are the biggest indicators of an incoming crash.

Lurker9605

So two perma-bears are going to circle jerk each other about the economy crashing?

Such bold claims they’ve been making everyday for more than a decade now. Let’s see if they’re right this time.

Also didn’t these two losses billions of dollars on being stubborn bears? They’re such famous pessimists that investors still pay attention to them?

Epic_Nguyen

The survival constraint. A state welfare allows more people to take risks and fail. Socialising risk is generally good for an economy because it allows the pitfalls of capitalism to be spread across a large population. Currently a huge issue is a select group of people get the socialisation of risk while others do not, which further fuels inequality even outside the cantillion effect of who controls the money supply. A UBI covers both bases a little bit better then current systems we have.

fremeer

The older I get, the more I lean toward just giving people cash instead of these overly complicated bureaucratic social programs.

WideSmilesAbound

Welfare is deeply flawed because of the intense bureaucracy and “cliffs” that are formed as people lose benefits if they take on more work or get promoted.

With cash transfers, you cut out these negatives and allow people to do whatever. “Whatever” often means car repairs, cell phone bills, helping friends/family, and buying food.

I can’t recommend season 1 of the podcast the Uncertain Hour enough. It’s all about the pitfalls of welfare. The obvious fix to these flaws is basic income/cash transfers.

Americans are about to get a big leg up with all this stimulus money.

askoshbetter

But money doesn’t buy happiness.. “id like to see you live without it.”

danvandamns

I feel like money for those in need is a good idea – a strong safety net – I’d be an advocate that if people lose their jobs they get a benefit that is extra strong enough to ensure they aren’t worried about losing their homes and feeding kids.

I think most people worry about the long term unemployed however.

In my block there are working families on tax credits, full time employed homeowners and some long-term unemployed.

I feel that to make the system fair, the benefits and housing allocation should taper down to a minimum acceptable level to encourage people to work.

I know some of the long term unemployed literally on the bottom floor of the block and apart from apathy, their worry is that if they go get a job, the benefits will be cut down – so it pays not to work on a very low wage. They also don’t want to lose their housing.

I don’t think the system works well for those in short term need, or those who pay taxes like the rest of us, especially when there is a shortage of housing near work centres.

hisky0

Probably an unpopular opinion, but I don’t understand why we incentivize people to have kids from a tax credit standpoint. If you don’t have money to have kids does it make sense to incentivize people to do so?

toppertd

Given how the stimulus checks have worked in the past, I’m under the impression that people who have babies born in 2021 will be able to claim the enhanced part of the credit when they file their taxes, but they obviously wont be eligible for the monthly payments for half the total amount.

Realshotgg

Why do I have a bad feeling that “policy makers” will respond by pumping in tax credits and other government programs for housing?

Pumping more money into the already “soaring” home prices.

SPACsabbath

So who says the small towns need funding? My property taxes have gone up by 25%.

PurplePopcornBalls

I am one of those millennials who is at the age, ready to buy. But with no regulation on how much home values can appraise and drop as well, how are we ever to buy something affordable? The article says that we Millennials make up a third of the workforce, but we only have 6% of the nation’s wealth? How is that possible??? I know how, but how can any government say they are moral and without corruption and allow this? Birth rates are declining yet they say there is suddenly a housing shortage when in 2008 there were too many homes and caused the great recession. I know, it’s because us Millennials grew up and are ready to buy homes. But the issue is that now we have a affordability crisis and shortage.

All financial leaders say we aren’t in a bubble, but are they really impartial? Are they, the Boomers who hold the majority of our nation’s wealth, don’t want to pass it on their wealth? Are they, the real estate workers who want to profit from skyrocketing home prices and sell while it’s far above 2008 values when the market crashed, are they being honest with us?

No wonder us Millennials are upset, the game is rigged and we can’t attain wealth ourselves.

Csdsmallville

they started to get alarmed, but then they realized that their own houses went up in price too, and they are no longer alarmed.

iamtomorrowman

Just use more government mortgages from Fannie Mae/Mac 🙂

That won’t lead to any issues. Hasn’t before.

FarrisAT

Can somebody with good economic knowledge explain to me how can US have a higher GDP outlook than pre-pandemic outlook. This covid wiped off around %2 from long term gdp but somehow by end 2022 US GDP is now estimated to be around %1 higher than what it was estimated to be pre-pandemic. I can’t understand it or this means that GDP will overshoot potential GDP by %3 which will cause another recession around 2023. Is this a good thought?

Raytheonx1

you know Biden’s stimulus plan is spread out over 2 years right? that’s about $950 million over twelve months while Trumps last stimulus was 900 billion over three months. So Biden’s stimulus is actually less than Trump’s. And I disliked Trump.

Aegidius25

The biggest boost. There has never been a boost as big as this big boost Biden has given to the world economy. The world will be forever in debt and gratitude to Biden’s Big Boost.

tianavitoli

Disagree. This treasury official still operates under the theory that every person is a rational actor. I believe people behave predictably irrationally. No matter how little money anyone has saved during the pandemic, the spending will be concentrated in the few months after covid restrictions are lifted. People will feel elated and positive no matter their financial circumstances. We will spend. We will not miss the chance to celebrate together with humanity.

snack92lover

They should pump more money into the system and lower interest rates. It’s proven the best way to govern is to cave into the mob’s demands so they can buy useless shit and be distracted while the money changers continue as is.

Financing420

This article is about the UK where, to my knowledge, there were no direct stimulus checks to individuals. I imagine the US pumping direct stimulus and enhanced unemployment into the largest consumer base in the world would have a different effect on consumer spending.

Vapejoba

The relevant direct quote from the article:

>“The idea that people will make up for lost consumption by spending it all over the next few quarters once the economy has reopened, I find implausible. It is much more likely it’ll be spread out over several years.”

So it’s not a question of “if” but “when”; and over what time frame.

whyrat

Pent-up demand argument is complete BS. People aren’t itching to go on a cruise or some other stupid frivolous shit. People are trying to stay afloat after a year of being anxious and overextended while the Republicans blocked any and all help to Americans in need.

Credit card debt, pushed off and underpaid bills, mortgage/rent, groceries. Most consumers right now don’t give a shit about much except necessities. Govt fucked up with their response so this too little too late garbage isn’t gonna jumpstart anything

No_Werewolf_1214

I’ve been doing research into this as part of my job and I can tell you that self reported/qualitative indications of food price inflation far outstrip the quantitative predictions posted by FRED, BoC, BoE, etc.

Regular people are already feeling the squeeze and by the time economists catch up it’ll already be too late.

Edit: For the folks asking about methodology; I work in qualitative market research and use survey/panel/focus group based research to map the qualitative public sentiment which emerges in response to (or in contrast to) quantitative economic data published by institutions like the US Fed or the Bank of Canada.

villagedesvaleurs

Can someone explain to me how CPI is just 1.5% YoY? The cost of everything seems to be going up, with the exception of vacations no one can do.

Edit: and the (most common) answer to why is quality improvements and the internet. The value we get from these two improvements is only indirectly calculated in CPI, which some economists argue means that true inflation is LOWER not higher.

FarrisAT

With prices of everything growing faster then inflation one could assume maybe inflation is calculated incorrectly.

1-cent

I have been shopping at Costco and have noticed there are always a lot of sales. My grocery bill is roughly the same. Where y’all shopping?

peakbubble01

Grocer Food prices haven’t changed that much in the DFW area.

Article implies that food price surges have yet to hit the United States. Yet people here are complaining with no evidence of it.

There might be a surge once everyone gets vaccinated.

Epic_Nguyen

And what is the labor force participation rate doing? Unemployment numbers are for suckers.

ThMogget

I see it. I think the recovery is going to be wild. Tons of stimulus and pent up demand

unmboi2009

I have to ask. As a layman why do I generally only see unemployment numbers being used to discuss the state of labor?

ProfessorPetrus

Not gonna happen

User158186

I wonder how underemployment and future job advancement potentials look like in various sectors. I imagine shipping, some manufacturing, and biotech production/research saw a surge last year, but can it continue growth? Is it sustainable?

allas04

Correction: they don’t want it to

We saw small companies and family business fail while largest business and tech companies succeeded, and now that they’re winning economically, the logical political decision is to side with them.

I wish this article would go more into what they mean by “ pre-pandemic pattern” though, but I mean it’s the guardian so what can you really expect

ihaveaquestion02

Hysteresis

ilCannolo

With Brexit and part of the financial services moving out of the UK yes, it will be hard for the economy to return to pre-covid pattern

HellaSexySparklePony

The economy may not return precisely to its pre covid-19 form, but within a year or two the economy will be a close mirror of 2019.
The Guardian has its own political agenda and has always been very downbeat about UK small business successes.
In reality covid 19 has hammered large companies as well as small organisations. eg. Rolls Royce, BA, most car manufacturers, most breweries, hotel groups and travel groups. All large companies and all struggling. Most will take time to recover. Smaller more agile busineses will bounce back more quickly.

sortofretired38

Consolidation of business in many sectors could be a problem going for a monopoly or duopoly. Less competition, both positive competing and negative-destructive competing. As well as less incentive to innovate at multiple levels or reward risky progress.

On the other hand, tech developments have also made things like starting food trucks easier, even if restaurant space is harder, though permits are an issue at times.

allas04